Mary L. Pottle
Mary Louise Pottle (born April 19, 1926) is one of the four founders of SWE Boston. She was one of the first few women to graduate with a degree in Mechanical Engineering from Northeastern University. She worked as an engineer for Allis Chalmers, Manufacturing Company, Boston, MA. She spent most of her life as a teacher in Braintree, MA. Mary Pottle is a lifelong advocate for human rights. In addition to founding SWE Boston, she also served as the president of South Shore Coalition for Human Rights for over 20 years.
Oral History Interview Transcript
On Wednesday, December 6, 2017, Mary Pottle was interviewed by Kimberly Wynne in Hingham, Massachusetts, as part of the SWE Oral History Project. The transcript and media files of the interview are below:
Mary: …My mother used to bring me to church Sunday morning because she was in the choir, and they had choir every year so... She would leave me down in the playroom. And he said I would leave and go and find them, and take a stand, and say, “I’m going to teach you how to color.” I was four…
So, a woman, a teacher that I liked that I hadn’t mentioned – she was wonderful. She was from Radcliffe. And it was my senior year. And it was coming near spring. And as I say, we didn’t have guidance counselors. Then, you were on your own. My mother had been killed in an automobile accident in my junior or senior year of high school.
Kim: I’m sorry.
Mary: So, I was running... I mean, it was… It was a bad time for me and decisions and so forth. Really like, they said, ‘What’re you going to do?’ My father said you know he hadn’t gone to school. He was off a farm in Maine. And when you’ve gone in... You’ve got to find out. It was getting toward the end of the year.
Kim: At this point, what was his occupation? What did he do? What was his job? Your father.
Mary: On a farm, down Maine, and during World War I, he went to apply in the army. They found out he had such a big garden and such a successful one that, during the war, they wanted him on the garden growing food and stuff for the army. But after the war was over, he came up to Massachusetts and got a steam-fritter slicer. And that’s where he ended up.
So I went out to Radcliffe. I went in to the lady there and said that, you know, I wanted them (applications). She then demands it, “Where did your mother go to college?”
My mother was off in… The people that took her, pulled her out of school at 12, got her a job, sent her off. She had to come home with an unopened envelope every payday. They took her and gave her a cab fare back and forth. And that was it, until she was 18.
She found out when she was 18 that she could leave them legally, and she did. She talked to somebody at a Y, who was very nice, and said you can come here. But she didn’t want to send her clothes. But they said – this woman said, “Look, you come here. I’ll take care of you for the first month and then we can settle up,” So she went, and that’s - you know - and she lived there.
I didn’t go into that big story. I just said she didn’t get to go school. “Where did your father go to college?”
Kim: My father?
Mary: This woman asked me. And I said he didn’t, he’s on a farm down Maine and stayed there.
By this time, I was getting a bump on my shoulder, kind of a small log you know because… What difference does it make, where they went?
Kim: You’re a different person than they are
Mary: So, I said, fed up, and I said “Well, thank you for your time,” and I tried to leave, and they said, “Wait a minute. You didn’t get your application.” I said “Well, I’ll tell you, I pricked myself this morning. My blood was red. I don’t think I’d fit in with these blue bloods,” and stormed out. Oh man, I was ticked off.
I went right from there, down to MIT. And I went in and talked to a nice man there, and he sent me to talk to the front office.
When I got back to him, he was… This doesn’t look good, you know. So I said “OK, what’s the story?”
He said they turned your application down.
I said, “Why?” I had a good rep. I was high honors. How could- what was the difference?
He said they said that “Your goal in teaching was not sufficient to bump a male from the role.”
So, a woman, a teacher that I liked that I hadn’t mentioned – she was wonderful. She was from Radcliffe. And it was my senior year. And it was coming near spring. And as I say, we didn’t have guidance counselors. Then, you were on your own. My mother had been killed in an automobile accident in my junior or senior year of high school.
Kim: I’m sorry.
Mary: So, I was running... I mean, it was… It was a bad time for me and decisions and so forth. Really like, they said, ‘What’re you going to do?’ My father said you know he hadn’t gone to school. He was off a farm in Maine. And when you’ve gone in... You’ve got to find out. It was getting toward the end of the year.
Kim: At this point, what was his occupation? What did he do? What was his job? Your father.
Mary: On a farm, down Maine, and during World War I, he went to apply in the army. They found out he had such a big garden and such a successful one that, during the war, they wanted him on the garden growing food and stuff for the army. But after the war was over, he came up to Massachusetts and got a steam-fritter slicer. And that’s where he ended up.
So I went out to Radcliffe. I went in to the lady there and said that, you know, I wanted them (applications). She then demands it, “Where did your mother go to college?”
My mother was off in… The people that took her, pulled her out of school at 12, got her a job, sent her off. She had to come home with an unopened envelope every payday. They took her and gave her a cab fare back and forth. And that was it, until she was 18.
She found out when she was 18 that she could leave them legally, and she did. She talked to somebody at a Y, who was very nice, and said you can come here. But she didn’t want to send her clothes. But they said – this woman said, “Look, you come here. I’ll take care of you for the first month and then we can settle up,” So she went, and that’s - you know - and she lived there.
I didn’t go into that big story. I just said she didn’t get to go school. “Where did your father go to college?”
Kim: My father?
Mary: This woman asked me. And I said he didn’t, he’s on a farm down Maine and stayed there.
By this time, I was getting a bump on my shoulder, kind of a small log you know because… What difference does it make, where they went?
Kim: You’re a different person than they are
Mary: So, I said, fed up, and I said “Well, thank you for your time,” and I tried to leave, and they said, “Wait a minute. You didn’t get your application.” I said “Well, I’ll tell you, I pricked myself this morning. My blood was red. I don’t think I’d fit in with these blue bloods,” and stormed out. Oh man, I was ticked off.
I went right from there, down to MIT. And I went in and talked to a nice man there, and he sent me to talk to the front office.
When I got back to him, he was… This doesn’t look good, you know. So I said “OK, what’s the story?”
He said they turned your application down.
I said, “Why?” I had a good rep. I was high honors. How could- what was the difference?
He said they said that “Your goal in teaching was not sufficient to bump a male from the role.”
"...not sufficient to bump a male from the role,"
Kim: Oh…
Mary: That went over big.
Kim: Was that kind of thing common?
Mary: It was common. That’s what it was like back then. I was really ticked off. So I got up. And he said, “If you spend a year in any other school, I guarantee you I’ll get you in here,” So I’m guaranteed on my job.
After all that, the school that takes me for graduate, is – I’m going over to Northeastern. Oh, this is all the same day, I get over to Northeastern and I walk in to the application. I want all the math and science you can get. I want to teach, and I don’t want to fool with languages and all that junk.
So, “That sounds like engineering,”
I said, “No, no, I want to teach it,”
And they said I have to take history and all these other things.
And I said, “OK, I’m an engineer.” And that’s how I got into that field.
Kim: What was the name of the first school, the one that did not accept your application?
Mary: Radcliffe, that’s the one connected with Harvard.
Kim: So Northeastern…
Mary: -opened a door.
Kim: -accepted you for engineering.
Mary: Then it was the money. I needed to find some money. I didn’t know what to do because I was like the second woman to graduate then. And all the paperwork for scholarships all said, “For a young man in need,” They couldn’t do anything. They said we’ll help you find work. They helped me find interest-free loans and things. They really helped me all the way. And so I graduated from Northeastern as a mechanical engineer.
Kim: As a child, were you skilled at math and sciences?
Mary: I always and will always love math. As I said, when I was 4, I was talking about teaching.
So, in a way, I went to Northeastern, and graduated. It worked out well. When I got out I was looking for a job. Everybody told me I’d never get a job (as a woman).
Kim: How did your dad feel?
Mary: Stubborn. So I have an offer from Allis-Chalmers. I had 4 offers in the engineering field. Allis-Chalmers, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the company. They make steel mill valves and all that kinds of stuff. They were looking for somebody. I intrigued them. But what they wanted was… The men in the office, for the most part, had customer travel. They were gone from 3 to 4 days in the week. Then they would get these calls and send them to the office. They needed someone to take care of the business in the office.
So they hired me. When I first started to work there, I don’t know why I picked out [a bunk field], something appealed to me. Somebody would call in, from one of the salesmen that was on the road. They would say they would give me a call.
A couple of them said, “I’m not going to talk to no damn woman,” So well then, you’re not going to get your message, so you fail then.
It got to the point that I would deal with it. They would assume that I was just taking messages. But I could figure the size of pumps, and the size of drives, and all that kind of stuff. I would look it up and call them right back. It would get to the point where they [customers] would call, and ask for me. And if they [coworkers] said something about the salesman, they [customers] would say, “I’d rather talk to Mary,” Because I would get back to them right away. So it worked out well.
Mary: That went over big.
Kim: Was that kind of thing common?
Mary: It was common. That’s what it was like back then. I was really ticked off. So I got up. And he said, “If you spend a year in any other school, I guarantee you I’ll get you in here,” So I’m guaranteed on my job.
After all that, the school that takes me for graduate, is – I’m going over to Northeastern. Oh, this is all the same day, I get over to Northeastern and I walk in to the application. I want all the math and science you can get. I want to teach, and I don’t want to fool with languages and all that junk.
So, “That sounds like engineering,”
I said, “No, no, I want to teach it,”
And they said I have to take history and all these other things.
And I said, “OK, I’m an engineer.” And that’s how I got into that field.
Kim: What was the name of the first school, the one that did not accept your application?
Mary: Radcliffe, that’s the one connected with Harvard.
Kim: So Northeastern…
Mary: -opened a door.
Kim: -accepted you for engineering.
Mary: Then it was the money. I needed to find some money. I didn’t know what to do because I was like the second woman to graduate then. And all the paperwork for scholarships all said, “For a young man in need,” They couldn’t do anything. They said we’ll help you find work. They helped me find interest-free loans and things. They really helped me all the way. And so I graduated from Northeastern as a mechanical engineer.
Kim: As a child, were you skilled at math and sciences?
Mary: I always and will always love math. As I said, when I was 4, I was talking about teaching.
So, in a way, I went to Northeastern, and graduated. It worked out well. When I got out I was looking for a job. Everybody told me I’d never get a job (as a woman).
Kim: How did your dad feel?
Mary: Stubborn. So I have an offer from Allis-Chalmers. I had 4 offers in the engineering field. Allis-Chalmers, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the company. They make steel mill valves and all that kinds of stuff. They were looking for somebody. I intrigued them. But what they wanted was… The men in the office, for the most part, had customer travel. They were gone from 3 to 4 days in the week. Then they would get these calls and send them to the office. They needed someone to take care of the business in the office.
So they hired me. When I first started to work there, I don’t know why I picked out [a bunk field], something appealed to me. Somebody would call in, from one of the salesmen that was on the road. They would say they would give me a call.
A couple of them said, “I’m not going to talk to no damn woman,” So well then, you’re not going to get your message, so you fail then.
It got to the point that I would deal with it. They would assume that I was just taking messages. But I could figure the size of pumps, and the size of drives, and all that kind of stuff. I would look it up and call them right back. It would get to the point where they [customers] would call, and ask for me. And if they [coworkers] said something about the salesman, they [customers] would say, “I’d rather talk to Mary,” Because I would get back to them right away. So it worked out well.
"I'm not going to talk to no damn woman,"
Mary: I was out there visiting in [Easton]. We’ve been invited up to a friend’s house, and I said, “No, that’s OK,” and they said “No, you’re invited too,”
So I went up to this house, and I hadn’t met the couple before, but it was very nice. There was another strange man there. I didn’t know who it was. But my friend George was the minister, and his wife, and myself. And the wife, were it were, came over and said to Connie, “Connie, I don’t think you’ve seen my new kitchen curtains,” Connie said, “No, I haven’t,” she said, “Well, come out and see them,”
I sat at the dinner, and then I realized it had been an eye-to-eye invitation.
Kim: What’s “eye to why”?
Mary: I mean, like this. [gestures]
Kim: Oh, I see. So only one person was invited.
Mary: So I sat back, and George said, “I think I better go up the church,” There was a phone call. He left.
These people… so rude. So I sat there, ticked off.
And then after, all of a sudden, this strange man sat and started to talk about education. Well. As then, I was so mad, I just lit into him, about the field, and what should be done, and the whole thing. And he said “Gee, you really seem to be into education,”
I said, “I am. I’m going to teach someday,”
He said, “Why aren’t you teaching now?”
I said, “Nobody offered me a job,”
He said, “Have you asked anybody for a job?”
I said, “No, but I’m going to, as soon as I get my college bills paid,” because I knew that I would do better in the engineering field than I would in teaching!
This was like two weeks before Christmas. He said, “Well, I’ll tell you. There’s a woman getting married before Christmas. She won’t be back, and I don’t have anybody to replace her,”
“Who are you?”
Superintendent of the schools in town. I had been set up!
So, I said, “Well, what grade do you think?”
He said, “Well, this happens to be 3rd grade,”
I said, “Oh gee, I don’t know if I could do that,”
He said, “Couldn’t you handle the math?” [wink]
I said [eyeroll], “Well I think I can handle the math- third grade math! But I don’t know how you teach reading,”
He said, “Well, nobody knows how.” They’re still trying to figure out how to do it, and they need plenty of help.
So I ended up - I went into - um. I taught there for half a year. My father was sick.
Kim: Did you teach math and reading? Or just math?
Mary: I taught everything. The whole class. The whole caboodle.
Kim: Did you have to quit your job as an engineer to do the teaching?
Mary: No, this was when I first said it was after my first job. So then when I went looking, then I got into… I went to Weymouth. I knew the superintendent. I knew the town. My father had ended up working for them, in charge of all the systems in Weymouth. So when I was in high school at the afterschool clubs or something. I would hang around and ride home with my father. The superintendent and me, and we’d be chatting too.
So I went down to the superintendent, and said I was looking for a job teaching. He said, “Well, you know Mary you can’t take advantage of the fact that you know me and ask for job,” So I said OK and I got up and left. And I went over to…
I’d heard that Braintree was starting a new accelerated program. They wanted to start a math program in junior high, so that kids could be into calculus before they left high school. And they looked at my background and said, “You’re made for this job,”
After I got the job and I was on it in Braintree, it went to my father. He said [to the superintendent at Weymouth], “What is this I hear about Mary teaching in Braintree?” That’s not showing much patriotism to Weymouth. “She came and asked you,” He said “Well, I just thought… she wasn’t serious,”
So that’s how I got to teaching in Braintree.
And that’s how I retired from Braintree.
So I went up to this house, and I hadn’t met the couple before, but it was very nice. There was another strange man there. I didn’t know who it was. But my friend George was the minister, and his wife, and myself. And the wife, were it were, came over and said to Connie, “Connie, I don’t think you’ve seen my new kitchen curtains,” Connie said, “No, I haven’t,” she said, “Well, come out and see them,”
I sat at the dinner, and then I realized it had been an eye-to-eye invitation.
Kim: What’s “eye to why”?
Mary: I mean, like this. [gestures]
Kim: Oh, I see. So only one person was invited.
Mary: So I sat back, and George said, “I think I better go up the church,” There was a phone call. He left.
These people… so rude. So I sat there, ticked off.
And then after, all of a sudden, this strange man sat and started to talk about education. Well. As then, I was so mad, I just lit into him, about the field, and what should be done, and the whole thing. And he said “Gee, you really seem to be into education,”
I said, “I am. I’m going to teach someday,”
He said, “Why aren’t you teaching now?”
I said, “Nobody offered me a job,”
He said, “Have you asked anybody for a job?”
I said, “No, but I’m going to, as soon as I get my college bills paid,” because I knew that I would do better in the engineering field than I would in teaching!
This was like two weeks before Christmas. He said, “Well, I’ll tell you. There’s a woman getting married before Christmas. She won’t be back, and I don’t have anybody to replace her,”
“Who are you?”
Superintendent of the schools in town. I had been set up!
So, I said, “Well, what grade do you think?”
He said, “Well, this happens to be 3rd grade,”
I said, “Oh gee, I don’t know if I could do that,”
He said, “Couldn’t you handle the math?” [wink]
I said [eyeroll], “Well I think I can handle the math- third grade math! But I don’t know how you teach reading,”
He said, “Well, nobody knows how.” They’re still trying to figure out how to do it, and they need plenty of help.
So I ended up - I went into - um. I taught there for half a year. My father was sick.
Kim: Did you teach math and reading? Or just math?
Mary: I taught everything. The whole class. The whole caboodle.
Kim: Did you have to quit your job as an engineer to do the teaching?
Mary: No, this was when I first said it was after my first job. So then when I went looking, then I got into… I went to Weymouth. I knew the superintendent. I knew the town. My father had ended up working for them, in charge of all the systems in Weymouth. So when I was in high school at the afterschool clubs or something. I would hang around and ride home with my father. The superintendent and me, and we’d be chatting too.
So I went down to the superintendent, and said I was looking for a job teaching. He said, “Well, you know Mary you can’t take advantage of the fact that you know me and ask for job,” So I said OK and I got up and left. And I went over to…
I’d heard that Braintree was starting a new accelerated program. They wanted to start a math program in junior high, so that kids could be into calculus before they left high school. And they looked at my background and said, “You’re made for this job,”
After I got the job and I was on it in Braintree, it went to my father. He said [to the superintendent at Weymouth], “What is this I hear about Mary teaching in Braintree?” That’s not showing much patriotism to Weymouth. “She came and asked you,” He said “Well, I just thought… she wasn’t serious,”
So that’s how I got to teaching in Braintree.
And that’s how I retired from Braintree.
Photo of Mary Pottle by Kim Wynne (2017-12-07)
Kim: So… um… I was waiting for this earlier, but I didn’t see it come up. How did you get involved with the Society of Women Engineers?
Mary: Have you looked at any old records?
Kim: I have not. I’m sorry.
Mary: Well, I’ve been trying to remember. It was somebody that I ran across, that I met from the New York area, that was an engineering woman. We got to talking. She was talking about this group she was in. So I went back, and said I think we ought to have one of these in Boston. So I called all the schools that had engineering, to get the names of women. And there were four of us.
Kim: Four? Where was this in your life? In the timeline of your life?
Mary: Oh well, this was way back when I was beginning to…
Kim: College?
Mary: I was working – teaching. Looking at this, so then…
I came back to the area with these four women. I don’t know. We’re the ones that started the Boston chapter. And that’s all we could find.
And one of the women was black. And that year I got word that the National meeting was going to be… I can’t remember what southern state, whether it was in Texas, or Louisiana, or down on the coast…
Kim: OK
Mary: Have you looked at any old records?
Kim: I have not. I’m sorry.
Mary: Well, I’ve been trying to remember. It was somebody that I ran across, that I met from the New York area, that was an engineering woman. We got to talking. She was talking about this group she was in. So I went back, and said I think we ought to have one of these in Boston. So I called all the schools that had engineering, to get the names of women. And there were four of us.
Kim: Four? Where was this in your life? In the timeline of your life?
Mary: Oh well, this was way back when I was beginning to…
Kim: College?
Mary: I was working – teaching. Looking at this, so then…
I came back to the area with these four women. I don’t know. We’re the ones that started the Boston chapter. And that’s all we could find.
And one of the women was black. And that year I got word that the National meeting was going to be… I can’t remember what southern state, whether it was in Texas, or Louisiana, or down on the coast…
Kim: OK
"...As long as you're going to places that discriminate. We want no part of it,"
Mary: So I got thinking about the four of us going. It was going to be a problem with this black woman. Talking about… you know. So I called the hotel, and they said, “No, we don’t have any rooms for blacks,”
And I said, “Look, she’s with us. She’s with the group,”
He said, “Well, we can fix her up in another hotel. And then, what you can do is, when she comes to a meeting, we have have someone meet her at the door and take her to the meeting and back. But she cannot roam around a hotel,”
Kim: Wow…
Mary: He said, “What’s your name again?”
I said, “It doesn’t matter. Because we’re not coming,”
So I called to get a hold of National and I said Boston will NOT participate this year. Thank you. Will not, as long as you’re going to places that discriminate. We want no part of it.
And then I thought I really should have talked to the other three before I did this!
Kim: Were you part of the four, or were you the fifth?
Mary: I was part of the four.
Kim: You were part of the four.
Mary: I think there was only four, and gradually they picked up some more…
The good years I had… And when I got teaching, one of the things I talked to them about… what’re they doing, after high school, for college, however they get into college. I was no guidance counselor, but I use to ask about that…
And they would say, “What do you make the most money at?” …You’re asking a teacher? I look at them and I said, “I love my job. But it’s not – it’s probably the worst paying job I could get,”
And we went on with that. I use to try to get them… I said, it isn’t important whether you make the most money. And I know you have a lot of loans from school and so forth. But I said, “The important thing is you get a job you like,”
Kim: That’s true.
Mary: A job that fulfills you. If you get in a job and you’re not happy in it, get out of it. Life is too short to spend in a job you don’t like.
And I said, “Look, she’s with us. She’s with the group,”
He said, “Well, we can fix her up in another hotel. And then, what you can do is, when she comes to a meeting, we have have someone meet her at the door and take her to the meeting and back. But she cannot roam around a hotel,”
Kim: Wow…
Mary: He said, “What’s your name again?”
I said, “It doesn’t matter. Because we’re not coming,”
So I called to get a hold of National and I said Boston will NOT participate this year. Thank you. Will not, as long as you’re going to places that discriminate. We want no part of it.
And then I thought I really should have talked to the other three before I did this!
Kim: Were you part of the four, or were you the fifth?
Mary: I was part of the four.
Kim: You were part of the four.
Mary: I think there was only four, and gradually they picked up some more…
The good years I had… And when I got teaching, one of the things I talked to them about… what’re they doing, after high school, for college, however they get into college. I was no guidance counselor, but I use to ask about that…
And they would say, “What do you make the most money at?” …You’re asking a teacher? I look at them and I said, “I love my job. But it’s not – it’s probably the worst paying job I could get,”
And we went on with that. I use to try to get them… I said, it isn’t important whether you make the most money. And I know you have a lot of loans from school and so forth. But I said, “The important thing is you get a job you like,”
Kim: That’s true.
Mary: A job that fulfills you. If you get in a job and you’re not happy in it, get out of it. Life is too short to spend in a job you don’t like.
"Life is too short to spend in a job you don’t like."
Kim: Yes
Mary: So I was always going on that. Kids are interested in… I’ve sent a few engineers out and seen them come on back... Oh, I’ve got the name over there. There’s a woman, she’s older than you now – Kathy. I’ve got her name there. She’s in the-
Kim: The Society of Women Engineers?
Mary: How many you got in there now?
Kim: About 500 in Boston alone
Mary: That’s a lot of people. When I was looking online, I would have said maybe 50… 60…
Kim: 500, around this area.
Mary: We’ve come a long way, haven’t we?
Kim: We have. There’s still a long way to go. I believe the numbers are about 15% for women engineers.
Mary: So I was always going on that. Kids are interested in… I’ve sent a few engineers out and seen them come on back... Oh, I’ve got the name over there. There’s a woman, she’s older than you now – Kathy. I’ve got her name there. She’s in the-
Kim: The Society of Women Engineers?
Mary: How many you got in there now?
Kim: About 500 in Boston alone
Mary: That’s a lot of people. When I was looking online, I would have said maybe 50… 60…
Kim: 500, around this area.
Mary: We’ve come a long way, haven’t we?
Kim: We have. There’s still a long way to go. I believe the numbers are about 15% for women engineers.
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